Bob Caswell - Latest Comments in PC Gaming Is Expensive and a Hassle, But I’m Lovin’ It

Re: PC Gaming Is Expensive and a Hassle, But I’m Lovin’ It

bobcaswell — Tue, 01 Apr 2008 23:17:53 -0000

S.G.-

Great comment, thanks for sharing!

Re: PC Gaming Is Expensive and a Hassle, But I’m Lovin’ It

S.G. — Tue, 01 Apr 2008 23:09:13 -0000

Hi Bob, I'd say that you are entirely correct. When PC gaming works, it'll be a better and more addicting experience than a console. But that's not really a good thing unless you are a hardcore gamer. I like stuff in moderation, a console is great for that. And you gotta admit that nothing beats sitting around on a couch with a few friends playing a split screen game. It's a real fun and social experience, I've had plenty of good memories.

I think PC gaming is indeed going down. I grew up solely on the PC, so the nostalgic aspect has been my main problem with switching to consoles. But at the same time I also grew up playing Nintendo with others, so it really isn't that foreign.

There's something really elegant about a console and the way it just works that I like about it. Kind of like vinyl records.

Re: PC Gaming Is Expensive and a Hassle, But I’m Lovin’ It

Paul Ellis — Fri, 29 Feb 2008 16:28:52 -0000

link)
Another Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radeon_R600#Radeon...

"no “Techconsumer” will be buying a pre-built computer."

Really? What if you just want to game without having to build your own system? Did you build your own car? How about your furniture? You know with some training you could learn how to build them yourself. Some people (even PC gamers) may have things they'd rather do with their time than build their computer.

It is a cop out to say that it would be dumb to use a pre-built computer. The fact that pre-built systems cost more (although if you read the article they said it was only ~$150 more than they could build it for) is a perfectly salient aspect to a discussion of how PC gaming is more expensive.

Lastly, "And as I have already pointed out time and time again, Over time PC’s are more cost effective then consoles".

Well, you have said that, but you haven't proved it. I am the only one who has done a real financial analysis of this. I decided to run one more scenario. Only one computer over 7 years, video card replaced every 2 for $250, and I took out the anti-virus costs because you could use AVG Free. I also fixed the Xbox 360 so it is the list price from when it came out $400 (vs $350). The results (NPV): Xbox 360 = $1,804, PC = $2873. So it is still $1,000 more expensive. Keep in mind that this is includes games (for both systems) over the 7 years.

So even with your scenario it is way more expensive. And I even assumed that a PC would last 7 years with only video card upgrades; which is impossible. Face it, even over time it is not cheaper. The reason why is that the initial purchase price is a lot higher than the console, and a $250 video card costs as much as a console (Wii or almost an Xbox 360 Arcade) and you keep buying it over and over.

Re: PC Gaming Is Expensive and a Hassle, But I’m Lovin’ It

alpha — Fri, 29 Feb 2008 13:31:18 -0000

"Actually there are video cards with greater than 48 shader units. The lowest end cards with greater than 48 units are 8800GT or a 9600GT. The higher end ATI R600-based units have greater than 48 units as well."

Actually there aren't any cards with more then 32 pixel pipelines currently on the market. The reason is because there is a newer technology and it is now measured as "Streaming Processors" The X360 is already behind in technology.

"That isn’t a super system either, 2GB of RAM, 8800GT video card."
But for the price of $1500 plus a $250 card upgrade, we are still around the price of a console for 5-6 years. And no "Techconsumer" will be buying a pre-built computer.

I think your article lacks depth. Two bad gaming experiences out of the 1000's of games on the market doesn't equate to more then a personal preference or experience. Obviously this isn't enough to support your premise. And as I have already pointed out time and time again, Over time PC's are more cost effective then consoles, but obviously not as convenient or easy as a console - but both have had problems, PC obviously has had more because there are more PC's , and more game titles for PC. But I would love to see factual information, research, or anything that isn't personal experience and preference only.

Re: PC Gaming Is Expensive and a Hassle, But I’m Lovin’ It

Paul Ellis — Thu, 28 Feb 2008 20:13:08 -0000

Oh, I forgot to throw in this link from TomsHardware entitled "Dell XPS 630 Review: Affordable PC Gaming?". They (unintentionally) highlight what we have been ignoring. If you don't build your own computer, it gets MUCH, MUCH, more expensive.

"It’s been a while since we’ve seen a complete performance system for less than $1500, and we simply couldn’t find another system to pit the XPS 630 against. But in addition to its respectable gaming performance, other components put the XPS 630 in the same performance league as our own reference system.

The fact that we have no other similarly-price performance system to compare the XPS 630 to bodes well for Dell’s efforts. In fact, because we had no similar system by which to compare it, we priced out a system comparable to the XPS 630 base model. With OEM software and similar quality components, it cost $1136, minus keyboard, mouse, and security software.. For a price difference of less than $150, Dell builds and warranties its system, offers 24-hour technical support, and provides a 15-month subscription to McAfee Internet Security Suit, in addition to the keyboard and mouse which we really didn’t know how to price."

That isn't a super system either, 2GB of RAM, 8800GT video card.

Re: PC Gaming Is Expensive and a Hassle, But I’m Lovin’ It

Paul Ellis — Thu, 28 Feb 2008 20:09:27 -0000

"You are absolutely correct - I did this too fast and there is no 10mb ati video card that is comparable. So sub this card that will do what the xbox does." The 10MB of eDRAM is ONLY for the frame buffer. The 360 has a unified memory architecture (a major distinction between it and the PS3) for the 512MB of system RAM.

"There is a reason that there are no video cards with 48 pipes, it is because it is unnecessary overkill for a PC video card. I propose that either of these video cards will outperform the xbox regardless of the loss of pipes" Actually there are video cards with greater than 48 shader units. The lowest end cards with greater than 48 units are 8800GT or a 9600GT. The higher end ATI R600-based units have greater than 48 units as well.

"While you can contend PC games have more problems then console games, I would contend that the difference is that PC users can usually fix their errors with a few minutes of researching." I agree that no software, on any platform is perfect, but consoles have less problems. nVidia's video card release notes are proof enough that there are constantly problems with each and every game. I'd (warning: my preference) rather have a 1 in 100 chance of an issue that I'd have to wait for a slick official fix for, that a 1 in 3 chance of having a problem but I could fix it with 5 hours of work.

"For me it was no hassle, just aggravating" Wow, in my world, things that aggravate me because I have to fix them usually fall under the category of "hassle". Must be why I'm not a PC gamer.

"Over long term that changes considerably if you include Xbox live fees, and extra costs incurred for xbox only games." Again, my analysis does take into account the Xbox Live fees and the fact that Xbox games cost about 20% more than PC games.

Re: PC Gaming Is Expensive and a Hassle, But I’m Lovin’ It

bobcaswell — Thu, 28 Feb 2008 16:13:50 -0000

"While Console users are just stuck waiting for a new patch to fix their game which may be completely unplayable at that point."

So far the only confirmed example of a "completely unplayable" game during this entire discussion has been my PC gaming experience with Gears of War.

"If you factor in that roughly 90% of the errors are user errors for PC..."

That may or may not be true. And coming to an understanding as to what constitutes "user errors" would be difficult (I'm sure we'd disagree).

But for millionth time, my point was that PC gaming is generally more hassle. Again, who is to blame for the hassle is irrelevant to the original point. The hassle is there either way.

Re: PC Gaming Is Expensive and a Hassle, But I’m Lovin’ It

alpha — Thu, 28 Feb 2008 15:59:11 -0000

"Well, all I can say is you don’t understand anything about computer architectures. Do you really think that your $500 computer will do graphics as well as the Xbox 360 with a $25 video card? That $25 only has 6 pixel/vertex shader pipelines (4 and 2 respectively) and the Xbox 360 GPU has 48! Yeah 800% times as many. And it was the first implementation of a unified shader configuration.

Nevermind the fact that it is still >$150 more than the 360, and it is built with the cheapest/lowest quality components you could find. Also keep in mind that you can go to the store and buy the Xbox 360 ASSEMBLED. You have to put you gaming rig together…lol. Yeah, that’s not a hassle. Don’t forget that your rig also won’t do component HDTV (you know the connector EVERY HDTV has)."

You are absolutely correct - I did this too fast and there is no 10mb ati video card that is comparable. So sub this card that will do what the xbox does.

HIS Hightech H260PRFS512DDN-R Radeon HD 2600PRO 512MB 128-bit GDDR2 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready Video Card - Retail
Model #: H260PRFS512DDN-R
$74.99 -$5.00 Instant $69.99

or perhaps this card for 32 pipes

EVGA 256-P2-N751-TR GeForce 8600GT 256MB 128-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 SLI Supported Video Card - Retail
Model #: 256-P2-N751-TR
$109.99 -$10.00 Instant $99.99

There is a reason that there are no video cards with 48 pipes, it is because it is unnecessary overkill for a PC video card. I propose that either of these video cards will outperform the xbox regardless of the loss of pipes.

And I stand corrected, it is virtually impossible to match the price of a console with a PC for initial costs. Over long term that changes considerably if you include Xbox live fees, and extra costs incurred for xbox only games. Not to mention that a PC that costs 2x as much will do 100x more. If you already have a PC then a console is just a luxury item.

Yes the CPU is faster, I already stated that.

As we all know Xbox sells at a loss, then is because costs incurred over time more then make up for that loss.

“Why would PC games NOT have more problems than console games given their more open nature?”
10 years ago this was 100% true, today it is not. Humans make mistakes whether or not its programming for PC or Console - As bitbucket has pointed out, consoles are not error free. When I was playing Oblivion the tech area was literally flooded with problems, glitches, and broken quests for the Xbox version. The Pc version had some errors too, and I even found a broken quest while playing that stopped the storyline. But because I was on PC I was able to locate a user fix within a few minutes and continue playing. The xboxers had to wait. This was an obvious error on the company that built that game - but it happened to both consoles and PC users, the only difference was that PC users could fix it in a few minutes. For me it was no hassle, just aggravating - for Xbox users it was game stopping. Which is more of a hassle to you, 5-15 mins fixing the problem, or waiting weeks or more.

While you can contend PC games have more problems then console games, I would contend that the difference is that PC users can usually fix their errors with a few minutes of researching. While Console users are just stuck waiting for a new patch to fix their game which may be completely unplayable at that point.
There are a lot more PC's out there then Consoles as well. If you factor in that roughly 90% of the errors are user errors for PC, then I honestly cannot see how PC's are more error prone then consoles. Today Plug and play actually works, the OS updates itself. If you use steam your games will automatically update as well. There are have been major steps taken to prevent user errors, and bring about a more compatible environment. But as long as their are users, there will be errors.

Until you have factual information we can only argue this point to no end.

Re: PC Gaming Is Expensive and a Hassle, But I’m Lovin’ It

bobcaswell — Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:38:43 -0000

alpha-

Did you read all the comments up until now? Basically, no one has been able to refute the point made in the following question:

"Why would PC games NOT have more problems than console games given their more open nature?"

Re: PC Gaming Is Expensive and a Hassle, But I’m Lovin’ It

Paul Ellis — Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:38:12 -0000

I forgot to mention that you should try and build anything with an 8800GT or higher for less than $1000 at Dell.

One more thing, the 360 has a 3.0Ghz triple core CPU where each core can simultaneously execute two commands (similar to HyperThreading). So it can execute 6 threads simultaneously at 3Ghz vs 2 threads at 2Ghz. Even with the differences in architectures (apples and oranges) the 360 CPU is faster.

Re: PC Gaming Is Expensive and a Hassle, But I’m Lovin’ It

Paul Ellis — Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:32:48 -0000

video card

Re: PC Gaming Is Expensive and a Hassle, But I’m Lovin’ It

alpha — Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:22:04 -0000

"Face it, it is a fact that PC gamers have more technical issues than console gamers."

Please provide that fact for all to see -

Re: PC Gaming Is Expensive and a Hassle, But I’m Lovin’ It

alpha — Wed, 27 Feb 2008 16:22:31 -0000

For arguments sake here is the closest comparison to a Xbox I could find - This was done in 5 mins so I haven't check for full compatibility. All prices are current on Newegg.

ATRIX CSCI-L8029-C34 Black/ Silver SECC Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case 480W Power Supply - Retail
Model #: CSCI-L8029-C34
$38.99 -$6.00 Instant $32.99

ASUS M2N-MX SE Plus AM2+/AM2 NVIDIA GeForce 6100 Micro ATX AMD Motherboard - Retail
Model #: M2N-MX SE Plus
$52.99 $52.99

SAPPHIRE 100192L Radeon X1050 256MB 64-bit DDR PCI Express x16 Video Card - Retail
Model #: 100192L
$29.99 -$5.00 Instant $24.99

AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800+ Windsor 2.0GHz Socket AM2 65W Dual-Core Processor Model ADO3800IAA5CU - OEM
Model #: ADO3800IAA5CU
$49.99 $49.99

Kingston 1GB 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 667 (PC2 5300) Desktop Memory Model KVR667D2/1GR - Retail
Model #: KVR667D2/1GR
$39.99 -$20.00 Instant $19.99

Maxtor STM380215AS 80GB 7200 RPM SATA-300 Hard Drive - OEM
Model #: STM380215AS

$37.99 $37.99

SpecResearch KB-558BB/P Black PS/2 Standard Keyboard Mouse Included - Retail
Model #: KB-558BB/P
$9.99 $9.99

LITE-ON Black SATA Blu-ray DVD-ROM Drive Model DH-4O1S-11 - OEM
Model #: DH-4O1S-11

$139.99 -$10.00 Instant $129.99

PPA 1431 5.1 Channels PCI Interface Sound Card - Retail
Model #: 1431
$11.99

Microsoft Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005 w/SP2B - OEM
Model #: M93-00294
$114.99 $114.99

DCT Factory OG-560 30watts 5.1 Speaker - Retail
Model #: OG-560
$39.99 -$10.00 Instant $29.99

Subtotal: $515.89

The xbox 360 has a slightly faster cpu and ram speeds. The PC cpu has more cache, and more ram (some for the OS) and for $20 more you can quadruple the ram the 360 has. And go with a dual channel for more speed.

The video card has 256 memory - compared to 360's 10mb. Over 20x more video ram.

The Hard drive is 4x larger. 80gb vs 20gb

Speakers are not included with console - I have included them with PC costs.

I subbed keyboard/mouse combo for controller.

Blu-ray - 360 uses the HD DVD afaik - blu ray is an additional add on (and HD DVD is on its way out) HD DVD was $99 but will be outdated technology in 2-3 years or sooner.

If you spend some time researching you can get most of these with free shipping - But for arguments sake lets bring the total to $600 for a Blu-ray Home Theater System that plays new games on Med-high. Most gamers will spend another $100-$200 for a better PSU, Video Card, and more ram. But even at a measly $200 over the Xbox 360 - You have doubled your speeds and power. Additionally you have a home theater system/PC/Game machine wrapped into one unit. I could save more money by buying windows xp home edition - and used parts (not even an option for consoles)

I put this together in a few minutes, with a few hours research I suppose I could fair much better in terms of components and price.

This system will plug into your tv, you can have as many controllers as you have USB ports (upgrade as needed) So you can in fact run it just like a console.

I am not trying to put consoles down, they have come quite a ways since atari 2600. But is completely unlogical to say that a console will outperform a pc - side by side for an extra $200 you get so much more. It isn't even a fair comparison.

Re: PC Gaming Is Expensive and a Hassle, But I’m Lovin’ It

alpha — Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:28:34 -0000

Wait, “something better and faster for nearly the same price” plays CoD4 at about the same resolution as my Xbox 360 which would cost $350? Oh wait, your “newly built” computer cost you $700. That isn’t “nearly the same price” it is double the price.

Yes you get what you pay for, and for twice the price, the PC gives you a lot more. But if you want a pc with the same console specs, you can build one for under $400-$500 and plug it into your TV.
Of course you won't be able to find a 10mb ati card - You will have go with at least 128mb

You won't find a triple core either - but a dual core will be very comparable in speed.

512 ram ddr3

20gb hd - You will most likely end up with at least 40-80gb HD on PC.

All these and you will have a PC that not only outperforms the comparable console - But it also doubles as a PC! The console doubles as a DVD player - whoopity doo - so does my PC.

Re: PC Gaming Is Expensive and a Hassle, But I’m Lovin’ It

Paul Ellis — Wed, 27 Feb 2008 10:03:04 -0000

Wait, "something better and faster for nearly the same price" plays CoD4 at about the same resolution as my Xbox 360 which would cost $350? Oh wait, your "newly built" computer cost you $700. That isn't "nearly the same price" it is double the price.

Re: PC Gaming Is Expensive and a Hassle, But I’m Lovin’ It

alpha — Wed, 27 Feb 2008 03:28:22 -0000

Your running vista?

Re: PC Gaming Is Expensive and a Hassle, But I’m Lovin’ It

alpha — Wed, 27 Feb 2008 03:25:57 -0000

I have played a bunch of games, and only rarely have had any issues with crashing or such (9 out of 10 times it is user error)

But Occasionally the error is in the software - this happens on consoles as well. That is why if you have a problem you seek the answer out on the forums first, and usually within minutes you will have solved the problem.

I am not sure how you can take one bad experience and translate it into "PC's are more of a Hassle". It is more like Crysis on PC was a Hassle. You don't even mention the thousands of other games that are typically hassle free. Here is a short list of games I have played recently that installed with no problems, and ran with no problems. Medieval 2 TW - Half life 2 - CS - DOD - Red Orchestra - COD4 -WOW - Oblivion(errors galore on console) - Madden 2008 - Witcher - Battlefield 2 - BF 2142 Ghost Recon Advanced Fighter -and the list goes on and on.. no hassles, no errors, no problems.

Taking into account all my gaming experiences over the past 28 years, I cannot agree that PC's are more of a hassle. To me consoles are a waste of money, when you can get something better and faster for nearly the same price - There seems to be no logic here. ( Currently playing COD4 on High - 1280x960 @40-60fps with my newly built $700 total cost computer -monitor/OS included) And yes I built it and saved about $300 in doing so...

Re: PC Gaming Is Expensive and a Hassle, But I’m Lovin’ It

bobcaswell — Mon, 25 Feb 2008 23:34:12 -0000

updated post for the details.

Re: PC Gaming Is Expensive and a Hassle, But I’m Lovin’ It

bobcaswell — Mon, 25 Feb 2008 18:25:34 -0000

"I’m sorry you feel that keeping your systems up to date is not your responsibility. I contend it absolutely is."

Again, wherever the responsibility lies does NOT change the hassle factor. With most consoles nowadays, they inform you when there is an update. PCs? Nope. Leaving aside my apparent responsibility to bookmark and check frequently every manufacturer website of every piece of hardware in my system, most of the games themselves don't do me the favor of telling when there's an update. This topic alone, on the aggregate, is HUGE evidence in favor of the idea that PC gamers face more hassle than console gamers.

"What your article is lacking is examination to the contrary of your own position, or even admitting that another point of view exists. It’s one of the tenets of good journalistic practice to at least give a cursory nod to the other side."

So where does leaving an article publicly open for comments line up in good journalistic practice? My "cursory nod" I think is more powerful ala this discussion we're having more so than a token one liner of "it's possible console gaming is more of a hassle."

"It seems where we’re breaking down at is the definition of hassle. We differ fundamentally about what that means, and whether the carbon-based (human) element is relevant to the equation."

The way I see it, the only difference is that you think who is responsible somehow negates a huge chunk of hassle. That's a very unique definition. Tell me if I'm misinterpreting your take, but it seems like you believe that "hassle is only hassle if it's not my [the user's] fault." Again, I haven't heard an explanation as to how/why responsibility/blame can negate hassle.

In any event, thanks for the discussion.

Re: PC Gaming Is Expensive and a Hassle, But I’m Lovin’ It

Paul Ellis — Mon, 25 Feb 2008 10:07:49 -0000

much more minor than Bob's instances of not being able to even play the game.

As for you experience, who cares? I built my first computer when I was 10, and have worked in an environment that had thousands of computers with tens of thousands of users at my site; it doesn't matter. In fact you are pointing out exactly the problem. Should anyone have to have my level of experience to play video games on a PC? If PC gaming was how I think it should be, anyone would be able to buy a Dell/HP/Gateway computer that is marketing for gaming and play games on it without any IT experience. The fact of the matter is that isn't how it is.

Lastly, one thing has happened to me since reading the comments for this post and my financial analysis post that preceded it. I have lost any remaining respect I had for PC gamers. It could just be the vocal set that responded, but you guys are delusional. See Bob can fess up that he has problems, but he still loves PC gaming, and that's fine. But when you ignore every problem and act like things are perfect and that everyone that doesn't agree is an idiot, then you get into a delusional fanboy state of mind. I think PC gamers have surpassed Apple Zealots as my least favorite fanboy group. Face it, it is a fact that PC gamers have more technical issues than console gamers.

Re: PC Gaming Is Expensive and a Hassle, But I’m Lovin’ It

bitbucket — Mon, 25 Feb 2008 03:23:29 -0000

Bob,

You pulled out the experience bag--but neglected to describe all of your credentials, that's on you not me. I rebutted as you escalated the topic, that's all.

I didn't make the claim that having owned 4 consoles makes me qualified to comment on the genere as a whole, I rebutted as you escalated the topic, that's all.

You insist on talking about personal experience. Again, I'm just rebutting that with my own. But what I offered as evidence was not even related to my own experience at all.

I'm sorry you feel that keeping your systems up to date is not your responsibility. I contend it absolutely is.

I'm also not saying it's a miracle to find a working combination, but arguably your rig isn't doing so well percentage wise on some very big games, so I'm just pointing out the most likely reason.

RRoD: Yes, props to MS for owning up to the problem, but your article was about hassle, which it certainly is going 6 weeks without your console for refurbishing, after going 13 months with your 360 hard locking after a few hours' play. That's some pretty serious hassle for 30% of gen 1 360 owners.

To clarify, I didn't say that I experienced all of the links I listed, I'm saying exactly that using one's own experiences as evidence of a trend is insufficient, and your sources cited as evidence were about the same as the types/frequency of complaints for any major title/platform combination I casually googled in 5 minutes.

What your article is lacking is examination to the contrary of your own position, or even admitting that another point of view exists. It's one of the tenets of good journalistic practice to at least give a cursory nod to the other side.

It seems where we're breaking down at is the definition of hassle. We differ fundamentally about what that means, and whether the carbon-based (human) element is relevant to the equation. Without that common ground, it's going to be difficult to have a constructive discussion. I can respect that you differ from my own point of view, but in the face of at least an equal amount of evidence to the contrary to that view, you aren't willing to discuss the possibility that your article might be light on facts, and heavy on opinion. With no common ground and a lack of objectivity, there's little point in discussing things further.

Best of luck to you Bob. We do agree on one thing. We both like PC gaming better, but our experiences certainly do differ.

Re: PC Gaming Is Expensive and a Hassle, But I’m Lovin’ It

bobcaswell — Mon, 25 Feb 2008 02:00:35 -0000

bitbucket-

"I don’t see console games crashing UNDULY more than PC games or vice versa."

And where's your evidence of this? Your anecdotal experience of seeing a fair share of screw ups on consoles and PCs? If my experience doesn't count, neither does yours... So you need to back up the above statement. Basically, answer this question:

Why would PC games NOT have more problems than console games given their more open nature?

And about the Red Ring of Death... Last I checked, Microsoft is taking responsibility big time. Where's the PC equivalent of taking responsibility for the (you think equal, I think more) screw ups?

"You build a custom system."

But all computers are custom systems, not just mine. It's not like there's some universal perfect computer that works with all games flawlessly, and I opted out of using it. This is the point you still haven't addressed. Again, leaving blame aside, how could PC games possibly NOT have more problems given this?

"Operating system–Vista or Xp? 32 or 64-bit? Version? Patch level? Board and graphics card BIOS up to date?"

Wow. Remind me again how not having the perfect combination (which is different depending on the game, btw) of the above is somehow the user's [my] fault?

"Try working on supporting PCs and servers in a business-class environment (over twenty simultaneously, actually) for 8 years to begin to match my depth in the field."

I agree that this isn't that relevant, but, uh, next time don't assume your experience is superior to whoever you're talking to. It could be, I suppose, but that's neither here nor there. For the record, I have supported servers in a business-class environment for about the same number of years as you in addition to my four years in a computer store.

You apparently do have more in-depth experience with consoles, though. And I must have some seriously good luck, since your bad experiences with consoles seem to trump my near perfect experiences with them. Your experience must be the norm while mine is the exception. Oh wait, I thought you didn't like it when personal experience is used as a basis for a point? Or are you exempt from that policy you've brought to the discussion?

"...noting that a large sampling of the pages you point out talk about problems that are clearly not the fault of the game manufacturer or the platform in general."

First of all, again, I'm not sure how the answer to "who is to blame" changes the hassle factor in question. I mean, regardless of where the volume of computer gaming problems come from doesn't change the fact that they exist.

Secondly, who's to blame then? Oh right, the user of the computer that somehow didn't get the right combination of updates for bios / OS / firmware / patches. Stupid users, that's just simply common knowledge, apparently (which again, could easily be different depending on the game, but shame on users for not keeping track of that better).

"Are you still standing by your statements that PC gaming is more hassle in light of this new evidence?"

Yes. And, by the way, remember that I'm actually more a fan of PC gaming than console gaming, despite this.

Re: PC Gaming Is Expensive and a Hassle, But I’m Lovin’ It

bitbucket — Mon, 25 Feb 2008 00:41:44 -0000

Paul, Bob:

Assassin's creed buggy PS3 release:
http://kotaku.com/gaming/buyer-beware/assassins...

360 and PS3 Orange Box complaints:
http://kotaku.com/gaming/update/xbox-360-orange...
http://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?showtopic...

A few GoW 360 complaints:
http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?t=484167

Overlord 360:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overlord_(2007_vid...) (see Reception section or search page for 'crashing')

Here's a beaut: Crackdown for 360 patch erases game saves--sound familiar?
http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/13486/Crackdown-E...

That's a list of noted crashing and patching bugs for every game I threw into Google in less than 5 minutes. All this evidence aside, here's the point that causes so much umbrage with your article:

I don't see console games crashing UNDULY more than PC games or vice versa. That's my biggest beef with what Bob is saying--he's attributing the instability of the genere (games) to a specific platform, which is at best thinly supported. Bob has shown in his article no evident effort to explore whether console games in their current iteration are any better, except his own admittedly narrow experience. ("I’ve heard of two, the ones you gave me" he says, and "I’ve owned about four different consoles in my lifetime".)

How about the RRoD (Red Ring of Death) on the Xbox 360? Estimates go up to 30% failure rate for that generation of the 360. That's not just being able to play a game, that's complete platform failure. Don't say that this type of failure isn't germane to the conversation either, it's evidence of extra, colossal hassle. How about not even being able to find a Wii in the stores for 6 months out of every year? If we're going to compare the hassles involved with gaming we shouldn't leave this out.

"2. The reason it is a cop out is the fact that a user can have a software installed that will screw things up."
I'll agree that's the problem but I'll disagree it's a cop out. In fact, it's my exact point that you can't blame the platform for what the user does to it. Take modified Xboxes for example. Lots of people have done it, but do they 'just work' anymore? Nope, they're buggy and error prone, but hardly means the platform is at fault or more of a hassle, wouldn't you agree? Even so, I think I've provided a reasonable enough sampling in the links above to argue that consoles are just as bug-prone vs. what Bob has used to state the opposing case without modification or blaming the user.

"3. The fact that you have to do all those steps just to be safe for a patch illustrates the hassle."
You build a custom system. The equivalent of going to the store of buying a bunch of parts and building frankenstein's car--a corvette block with a charger intake/fuel injector and exhaust by M.C. Escher, because by golly the parts bolt together. Who better to know what you need to do to keep it working than you? The parts manufacturer? the builders of the road? That's really what you're doing here, blaming your driving experience on a car that you built. By building it yourself you have to assume responsibility for how it drives, and its daily maintenance. If it's not second nature, or if you're out of your depth, you're going to reap what you sew. If you don't back up your work on any computer: console, pc, server, even PDA before you go patching, you're at risk to kiss your work goodbye. You just can't blame the platform for your lack of caution.

I stand by my statement that the largest portion of the problems PCs have are the users (and in this case builders). That doesn't make the platform more of a hassle, if the users of the platform build and care for their systems as they should. The problem is that most hobbyists don't do this. Like the hobbyist's car, their hot rod projects are doomed to see a few days of sunshine a year but spend the rest of their time in the garage because the owner lacks the drive, discipline, and the expertise to make sure things stay healthy under the hood. Just having a supercharged 454 under there doesn't mean you'll be able to drive more than a few very fast miles before you need to do some serious tear-down and maintenance. Maybe I'm saying that PC gaming is for more advanced users than the console crowd. Does that make them more of a hassle? No, it just takes a better class of driver/pit crew to make them perform as they should.

Jumping Bob's comment to Paul's follow-up about compatibility:
"That sounds like a compatibility nightmare…"
Operating system--Vista or Xp? 32 or 64-bit? Version? Patch level? Board and graphics card BIOS up to date? I found several problems online with the three pieces of generic hardware you listed, from not able to load an OS to 25 fps rates in F.E.A.R.:
http://tinyurl.com/3xqffc
http://tinyurl.com/2wny94
None of the links provided blame the cpu/gpu/board combination, but again, the first stone has been cast without disclosure of the rest of the rig, which is most frequently where the problems are. Compatibility encompasses everything on a running pc, not just 3 components of the hardware. Moving on...

Whew. Now on to Bob:

"Actually, I put a lot of time and research into my build and have four years experience working in a computer store. It’s not like I just bought random part and hoped they worked."
So you admit that your experience is limited to XP and Vista, and hardware all the way back to the 32-bit Athlon/Sempron processors and Intel 32-bit P4 with hyperthreading? And I bet people bring you their PCs to get them fixed too, right? Try working on supporting PCs and servers in a business-class environment (over twenty simultaneously, actually) for 8 years to begin to match my depth in the field. Not an attack mind you, but since we're putting credentials on the table...

"But keep in mind that I’ve owned about four different consoles in my lifetime and haven’t had one single problem." I've been using consoles since the Atari 2600, my friend. I've owned 10 consoles to your four: Atari 2600, NES, SNES, Sega Genesis, and two generations of the most recent--that is, gamecube/wii, Xbox/360, PS2/PS3, and I've played hours and hours on at least 5 more, all the while playing games on general purpose computers. They ALL have had lockups and lost saves and buggy code. Lockup on a Sega Genesis? You just lost your entire game (no saves and limited continues, that's hardcore my friend).

So setting credentials and experience aside, let's get back to the points you are making in the article.

"Again, the point is in the title: PC gaming is more expensive and more of a hassle than console gaming (by definition ala the “open” vs. “closed” nature)."
Exactly, but my point is you've produced very little evidence and exhibited very little research, and are just posting--as an authority--about your own mediocre experience as if it's a broadly accepted fact. To which I have already posted numerous rebuttals and counterpoints, and disassembled your references, and provided explicit examples to the contrary. All the while, noting that a large sampling of the pages you point out talk about problems that are clearly not the fault of the game manufacturer or the platform in general.

As for the expense, I was avoiding your reference to Paul's article because it's not your work, and I didn't think it was fair since all you did was point out the controversy involved. Paul's article was sufficiently dissected in the comments section. I won't muddy the waters here with all of its suspect suppositions and preconditions to make his numbers compelling. My argument is with the hassle aspect of your article vs. consoles, not the price.

With your last clarification about backups, I'll concede that the conditions around the Crysis bug you experienced would have made it unlikely that you would have had useful pre-patch saves.

But again, you're using this as ammunition to paint the platform with a wide brush. I've listed at least one console example of the exact same thing, (it references a workaround, not a solution just like the Crysis problem) along with numerous additional references of problems with console games across multiple manufacturers.

Are you still standing by your statements that PC gaming is more hassle in light of this new evidence? Surely you can see that--in the field of 'hassle'--, the platform playing field is at least equal.

Re: PC Gaming Is Expensive and a Hassle, But I’m Lovin’ It

Daniel — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 22:20:54 -0000

posted my solution to it. Took me two months to finally figure out what was wrong. I hope it works for you too.

Re: PC Gaming Is Expensive and a Hassle, But I’m Lovin’ It

Paul Ellis — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 19:17:12 -0000

Speaking about compatibility, I have to mention that Bob's computer is a single nVidia 8800GTS, an Intel Core 2 Duo in an Intel Motherboard (not just chipset), and nothing is overclocked. That sounds like a compatibility nightmare...